THIS PAGE HAS BEEN ACTIVATED AS THE NEW STATESMAN BLOG IS NOW CLOSED FOR COMMENTS
At 10am this morning, the New Statesman finally closed the Mark Lynas thread on their website after 1715 comments had been added over a period of five months. I don’t know whether this constitutes any kind of a record, but gratitude is certainly due to the editor of of the New Statesman for hosting the discussion so patiently and also for publishing articles from Dr David Whitehouse and Mark Lynas that have created so much interest.
This page is now live, and anyone who would like to continue the discussion here is welcome to do so. I have copied the most recent contributions at the New Statesman as the first comment for the sake of convenience. If you want to refer back to either of the original threads, then you can find them here:
Dr David Whitehouse’s article can be found here with all 1289 comments.
Mark Lynas’ attempted refutation can be found here with 1715 comments.
Welcome to Harmless Sky, and happy blogging.
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There’s an interesting article in the Telegraph blog (not, of course, in the paper itself) – here. Headed US Congress investigates Climategate e-mails: this could be the beginning of the end for AGW, the author (Gerald Warner) notes:
(He goes on to talk of “a farcical Carry On Researching scenario at East Anglia”.) He concludes:
Well perhaps. But I seriously doubt if will take off as “global news”. As a commentator notes, “Politics isn’t what happens, politics is what is reported”. And, here in the UK, the MSM has moved on from what little interest they had in Climategate: and, of course, the Copenhagen jamboree is set to dominate the MSM for the next few weeks
George Washington’s 1789 Thanksgiving Proclamation
Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me to “recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:”
Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.
And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.
Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d day of October, A.D. 1789. – George Washington
Happy Thanksgiving! – Mr. & Mrs. Brute
Just to say it’s been very difficult to keep track of the latest developments re ClimateGate, and do a demanding day job and have a personal life too, over the last week. What a roller-coaster.
First a belated thanks to TonyN (#8431) for the Flat Earth News recommendation – definitely another for my reading list.
Also to TonyB, just to say I thought your UHI post re Mohonk Lake/Central Park on the Air Vent blog was very good indeed. I think you will have to follow Bishop Hill’s example and write a book on the whole subject.
Robin, I think your comment (“an interesting article in the Telegraph blog (not, of course, in the paper itself)” is very telling. It looks like an important moment in climate science history is happening – and the print and broadcast media are being left in the dust.
Also, to Brute – Happy Thanksgiving!
Alex: it could be more than that (“an important moment in climate science history”) – it could be the moment when blogging came of age and began to determine the news agenda. What I find particularly interesting about all this is how it seems that now almost any MSM article that refers to any aspect of “climate change” (from any standpoint) if published on line is hit by remarkably well-informed comments about the CRU leaks. Surely the MSM cannot ignore this for much longer – and must review its “nothing to see here, move on” position?
I am however ready to be disappointed.
Brute
Happy Thanksgiving!
Max
Question Time tonight had a question about the leaked emails. Something along the lines do you think Global warming is a Hoax? Dimbleby rather mischievously asked Melanie Philips first who answered yes it was a hoax. She quoted one of the first emails about “where had the warming gone”, but completely missed the trick over the freedom of information. But it I think came across that the science is not settled and that we should be having a more open debate. David Davis was walking a careful line, is he ready to step in if Cameron has any more gaffes like this weeks over the so called taxpayer funding of extremist schools. There was a lot of ill-informed emotion about the floods in Cumbria being due to global warming, and more stupidity linking reducing CO2 with cleaning up pollution. Dimbleby did his usual when he doesn’t like what he is hearing and interrupted Philips and asked her to hurry up. I’m beginning to lose respect for him as his impartiality is not what I once thought it was.
After question Time we had The Tonight Program with Andrew Neil, Michael Portillo and Diane Abbot. Portillo mentioned Nigel Lawson’s article and unequivocally said there should be further debate and that he did not believe the whole thing. Diane Abbot mentioned Cumbria and got a quick correction from Neil. It’s interesting that she who represents the Black community in London had no really strong view on the subject, which I think mirrors the country as a whole. Climate change in Britain is a white middle class phenomenon and maybe Plimer is correct when he says that only when we have no money left will we come to our senses. Certainly amongst those with whom I work it is generally those that are the better off that are the advocates, and crucially none of them can count on much scientific knowledge, although none are stupid.
There was also a good discussion on scepticism vs. cynicism. Worth watching on the iPlayer
Robin I think you are correct about blogging coming of age. The MSM are going to have to play catch-up or they will all disappear. Already all the evening papers in London are giveaways, and despite what Murdock may say I think his idea of charging for internet news will only accelerate the decline in his empire. I was just reading that 100 years ago the biggest paper in the world was the Daily Mail with a circulation of about a million. I wonder if any Paper has that sort of circulation today.
The Times had an article about the Copenhagen conference this morning. Some might be amused to note the “most recommended” comment – here. (At least it was when I last looked.)
Peter G
I gather that the Sun still sells nearly 3m copies a day, although I suspect that most of its readers don’t have easy internet access…
How to Forge a Consensus
The impression left by the Climategate emails is that the global warming game has been rigged from the start.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703499404574559630382048494.html?mod=googlenews_wsj#articleTabs%3Dcomments
Robin,
Now you have 8 “recommended” votes……
How’s that for “rigging” the game?
Chuckling……
Hi Brute,
Thanks for “first official” Thanksgiving story.
Yes. We all have a lot to be thankful for, whether we live in the USA, in the UK, in Australia or Switzerland.
And I think it is fair to say that a lot we have to be thankful for is the industrialization of these countries (plus many others).
The Industrial Revolution did not always progress smoothly. There were the inventors, the entrepreneurs, the railroad barons, the masses of factory and mill workers, etc. And there were the exploitation of children, bloody labor disputes, etc. But, at the end of the day, we were all better off as a result.
Our parents and grandparents (and their parents before them) saw the birth of the automobile, the airplane, electrical power for all domestic users, widespread improvement in hygiene and medicine, telecommunications, and all the many things we take for granted today.
Human ingenuity plus the “carbon economy” is what made it all possible: first coal, then petroleum, then natural gas.
Let’s be thankful to James Watts, Charles Parsons, Gustaf deLaval, John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, Thomas Edison, Rudolf Diesel, Karl Friedrich Benz, the Wright brothers and the many others who pioneered this carbon-based Industrial Revolution to make our lives what they are today.
And let’s don’t throw it all away with silly carbon caps and taxes just to “mitigate” against some virtual computer-generated disaster based on fudged data and politically driven “science”.
Max
More (from WSJ) on the CRU scandal and the diminished chances for “cap ‘n tax”.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703499404574558070997168360.html
Hey Max,
I typed in “Scientific Fraud” at Google and got back 589 stories relating to Climategate.
Looks like the cat is out of the bag………
http://www.examiner.com/x-31244-Louisville-Public-Policy-Examiner~y2009m11d27-Global-warming-fraud-uncovered
Yes, Brute (8460), it’s embarrassing (not really) – thanks.
Robin
Notice that your comment is still on top of the hit parade. Congratulations!
Is this a first sign of a turning tide?
Max
Mr Griffin goes to Copenhagen.
Nick Griffin is to attend Copenhagen as representative of the European Parliament Environment Committee, according to the Observer at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/29/nick-griffin-bnp-copenhagen-summit
and the Independent at
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/climate-change/bnp-leader-griffin-will-attend-climate-summit-1831105.html
But neither journalist raises the obvious question of why a committee presumably made up of global warming believers should choose a sceptical racist to represent them. True, he will have no influence on the proceedings, but shouldn’t journalists at least raise the question?
The committee’s site is no help, since it was last updated in 2007. The EU Parliamentary Green Party has a site with latest news updated today, but nothing about Griffin or Copenhagen.
I posted a comment to the Guardian article, raising the possibility that the warmists on the committee (who are drawn from all parties, in proportion to their representation in parliament) might have deliberately chosen an AGW sceptic and member of the extreme right in order to tar all us sceptics with the BNP brush. My comment appeared, backdated, just before comments closed, and therefore had no effect on the debate (400+ comments, now closed).
Guardian Environment: Climate Change have now added two more articles on Griffin in Copenhagen. It looks like this newspaper is mounting a concerted campaign to brand us sceptics as extreme right wingers. (Just a few days ago we had Monbiot on Guardian Environment apologising, and promising to be a better journalist). I do recommend that everyone keep an eye on this story. It seems that the “debate” in the mainstream media might get very nasty indeed.
Little bit of light relief
(put down the coffee first)
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/geraldwarner/100018373/climategate-the-phil-jones-university-could-break-into-childrens-television-big-time/
Barleysane #8468
You heard it all here first about six weeks ago, when the link to BBC childrens programmes
was explictly mentioned. I wonder when the BBC will pay me my fee for using my material? :)
tonyb
http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/crossing-the-rubicon-an-advert-to-change-hearts-and-minds/#comments
What a very depressing read, makes it very obvious why the MSM cares nothing for “ClimateGate” in the UK, and would suggest that even if the science is shown to be faulty/false the very best we can hope for is a slow lingering death of AGW after a great deal of damage has been done to the country.
Time to find some happy thoughts i think.
Barleysane.
On the bad side Al Gore also met with Cameron and eighty of his MP’s. On the good side at least the Australians have now got a scepticsl choice with a new leader of the opposition!
tony
Like Geoff, I think that the debate is due to get nastier and even more polarised than now, especially when all the grand idealistic talk of fighting the climate starts to be translated into tax rises, aid packages, punitive legislation and ever more state intrusion into our lives (doctors advising patients about their carbon footprints?) It’s going to be a bumpy ride! Already there seems to be a weird disconnect between the political class plus the media (talking mainly of the UK here) and the rest of us; take this bizarre article in the Telegraph (“…both parties know the eco-vote is vital…”) and compare it with the vast majority of comments below it, just to get a sense of this utter divide.
On another note (and apologies if you’ve all seen it/linked to it etc. already) – here’s a collection of poor Harry’s README comments (courtesy of An Englishman’s Castle blog). The Augean Stables would have been a breeze by comparison.
Alex Cull
You wrote:
This is true in tiny Switzerland, as well, and from what I can read it also applies for the USA.
Since we are all living in democratic societies with representative governments, the solution appears pretty simple to me — as they say in New York-ese “git ridda da bums!”
It will be more difficult to “get rid” of non-elected EU or UN representatives, so the task will be to keep these guys from taking over.
Max
I see that R4’s ‘The Moral Maze’ is discussing science and morality tonight, with reference to the CRU debacle. Nice (and surprising) to find the Beeb giving airtime to scepticism on the subject, but I suppose we’d better wait to see who’s on!
[TonyN: Thanks for that James]
I’ve just received the following email, headed “Global warming: the truth” from the Spectator:
There are two sides to every argument.
Read tomorrow’s Spectator for the one you haven’t heard.
There’s a subtext:
Global warming: the truth.
The world’s leading scientists and thinkers in a debate you won’t hear at Copenhagen .