This comment from JunkkMale originally appeared on Geoff Chambers’ Moderation in Moderation thread. I’ve moved it here, with the comments it attracted, because I think that this is the kind of problem that seriously needs talking about.
The government talks about the importance of individual actions in the fight against climate change, and it is up to each and every one of us whether we buy an electric car, put a solar panel on the roof, or cancel a weekend flight to Rome. Children do not usually have a choice about what they are taught.
This thread has strayed into many areas beyond the main topic, and I for one have enjoyed the quality of debate on display.
One topic I noted was how certain issues are being shared with our kids. To be honest, it was passing interest… until last night.
The subject of ‘who tells, controls’…. especially in terms of authority figures, was rather brought home to me last night.
My kids are revising currently for some serious exams that do count.
One brought in this book, which forms part of the curriculum: AQA GCSE Science Core Higher Ed. Graham Hill. Pub: Hodder Murray
He wanted some advice on a question. From a series including sections such as 3.3, entitled ‘How do humans affect the environment?’ and 3.5 ‘Global Warming’ (other aspects of global warming and the greenhouse effect also covered in Section 6.4, Air Pollution), and 3.6 ‘What can be done to reduce human impact on the environment?. Here it is, as posed, under 6.4, p113:
21. Which of the following three do you think will actually happen? Write a paragraph to explain your answer.
a) We’ll worry and blame ourselves for climate change for thousands of years.
b) Fossil fuels will run out and renewable energy will save us.
c) The oceans will evaporate as the Earth heats up and humans will die.
His face, when I opined that ‘none are very coherent, accurate, or suggest definite answers that are sensible, at least as posed’, was a heartbreaking picture. He just wanted… needed to provide the ‘right’ one as the system demands it to be one of them. Sighing at the ‘will happen’, I therefore attempted to assist based on the hope that the paragraph of explanation would be rewarded if well argued and having a basis in fact and scientific interpretation.Forget a), which is facile and shows a poor grasp of even basic climate science terminology, though maybe does reflect the ‘worry’ mindset being churned out in some quarters.
If you have to choose, choose b) as fossil fuels will run out. They are finite. As to whether ‘renewable’ energy ‘will’ ‘save’ us, that rather depends on how many of ‘us’ there are, and from what we are being ‘saved’. It seems, currently, optimistic to presume renewable sources can meet all current and projected energy demands.
As for c), well, yes, as the sun goes supernova in a few billion years. But humans may be in a different place by then.
THIS… is what they are being served????!
More touching still was his further plea to me NOT to get in touch with the school with my now serious reservations about the way this information was laid out and the questions posed… as he just wanted to pass the unit and not get in trouble.
If this is the state of education, at least in this area (I now wonder about history, etc), I am seriously troubled not only by the course structures, but the mindsets prevalent in our educational establishment.
Are there any teachers out there who would be prepared to comment? anonymously if necessary.
PeterM
Not to stray too far off topic (and get bounced off by TonyN), but let me clarify your statement (144):
This is true.
What is NOT true is that the incidence or intensity of these weather events has increased as our planet has gradually warmed (as claimed by IPCC), nor is there any scientific basis for the premise that they will increase in the future as a result of anthropogenic greenhouse warming (as also claimed by IPCC, based on GIGO model studies).
These are just two (of many) IPCC “myths” that are floating around out there among folks who “lack even a basic knowledge on the subject of climate and weather” (as you put it).
The silly claim by Al Gore (in AIT) that Katrina was caused by AGW is probably one reason why some people still believe this myth.
Just to clear that point up, lest there be some confusion.
Max
Some of you are beginning to stray OT again. If you want to discuss Carrington Events or extreme weather, other than in the context of how children are taught about these things, then do so on the NS thread.
There hasn’t been much time for commenting this week, but I’ve followed this thread particularly carefully, with great interest, and growing dismay. As we don’t have childeren, there isn’t much that I could add anyway.
Here are a few catch-up points:
GeoffChambers, #90:
I wrote to Welliington Grey several days ago, but have not received a reply.
JunkkMale, #101:
It would certainly be interesting to get a reaction from OFSED provided it was clear to them that you don’t want it to be treated as a complaint and referred to the school.
JunkkMale, #110:
Getting a thread going on that message board seems like a really good idea too, if the log-on problems can be solved. Things are seldom quite as simple as they seem and getting some feedback from the teaching profession would be useful.
JunkkMale, #141
The BBC is a special case so far as the FOIA is concerned (together with the other public service broadcasters), but there is no excuse for the way in which they have exploited the derogation that they enjoy to suit their own ends. This may be challenged in the Supreme Court very soon. If you decide to try an FOI application, which I think would have a fair chance of success in this case, then it can be done very easily through a dedicated web site. Let me know and I can give you some useful links.
TonyN
Curses! We thought if we fed in the words ‘education’ and ‘children’ it might fool you. :) It’s a fair cop.
tonyb
junkkMale
Do you want me to try to register on that site that won’t accept your email? It’s probably because you have a Mac so it thinks you’re too much of a free thinker :)
As regards your #47, that is a good catch all answer by Peter, but it pre supposes that the one stating it actually knows more than the person it is being directed to. (obviously not in Peters’ case :) )
Would a teacher or an education board accept that a child or parent knew more than they do? Probably not, unless it can be demonstrated, and even then you must remember these edicts are passed on from very high and there is probably no wriggle room-except in private education.
As an example every country signing up to the Kyoto protocol on climate change has to agree to be bound by the science and the findings of the IPCC. So edicts pass from;
* IPCC
* National governments.
* Govt depts through the filter of the Climate change dept, then though the hierarchy of depts- in this case that of ‘Education.’
*Then through THEIR various agencies. In the case of the Education dept through the Local education authorities normally run by the county councils
* Then through the various tiers of local govt including district councils, parish councils and, at a local level, schools.
So even if you could convince someone in the local education authorty that you knew more than they did, it’s unlikely they could do anything as they are bound to follow the dictates of SAGE 21- the UN’s climate change education programme (a very disturbing programme in itself)
Tonyb
The importance of being Tonys… or Peters… As names are only subtly different here I will have to pay very careful attention!
If that distinction could be trusted, and confidently respected by them, I could pursue this.
A bit sensitive with officialdom. After some dire ‘professional’ failures by the NHS with my dementia-stricken Mum (the phrase ‘sandwich generation’ haunting me currently) I was moved to seek some clarifications on best practice from the PCT. They wouldn’t give it unless I lodged a complaint. My point was that I did not feel it fair to make a complaint until I was sure that enough had been mishandled to warrant one. Catch 22!
Agree. See below, too.
Please do. I suspect I am toast already in the world of official ranks closing, but to mix food group metaphors I may as well progress from lamb to mutton status.
That is kind, and I’ll keep the offer in mind, but I see horrors of data protection on that horizon. Let me persevere. Maybe I’ll retry with FireFox or IE or Chrome over Safari, but I fear the ‘damage’ is done as my user name and email are in the bowels. Maybe they have a tech contact I can appeal to.
As to ‘knowing more’, I would not so presume, and in this ‘case’ am still trying to simply get around the surely not unreasonable stage of ‘seeking enlightenment’, more as to what ‘they’ think the answer/s to the question ‘they’ posed is/are. This all kicked off as i was stumped on how best to help my kids answer a revision question!
Admittedly, ‘them’ making a commitment in this particular case could lead to a bunch of other stuff, which may explain why the few ‘defensive interference’ contributors have thus far also proven reluctant to set any tricky precedents.
JunkkMale
In my #153 I mentioned a hierarchy of information with the IPCC at the top. As regards the education policy, you might like to read this article that I wrote before the last election.
http://noconsensus.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/crossing-the-rubicon-an-advert-to-change-hearts-and-minds/
Two thirds of the way down it gives various links to Sage 21-the UN education policy that your school is obliged to follow. However, to get the full context you might want to depress yourself at the insidous hold the IPCC has got us in by reading the entire article and following the links.
tonyb
JunkkMale
It’s worth taking a look at the parts of this that deal with the FOIA in Engalnd and Wales, but skipping bits on the Environmental Information Regulations and arrangements for Scotland.
http://www.cfoi.org.uk/pdf/foi_guide.pdf
Its short, clearly written for the layperson and very down-to-earth.
Government Departments are inclined to misunderstand requests for information in ways that allow them to apply exemptions. The guide explains how to avoid this and also just what public authorities responsibilities are under the act, which includes helping you find the information you want, something that sometimes slips their memory.
It’s also worth having a look at what other people are doing here:
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/
This is a dedicated site for making FOIA requests and provides the contact information that you will need, but if you’ve read the guide there is no need to use their pages to actually make your request, particularly if you want it to be private.
It’ll be interesting to hear how you get on.
Lumme, and this all started with my boys asking me to help with one little question for their homework and revision!
I think I’ll need to hire ’em to assist in all my new missions.
I will of course share any progress… hopefully positive.
Suitably sensitised to this issue, as a prodigious consumer of information anyway, I have started to pick up on a few things now of pertinence.
One is this chap, who seems influential at least, though controversial:
http://www.nosacredcows.co.uk/
Has a column in the Telegraph and trying to establish a school system funded by government but run by parents. Rather vilified by the mainstream teaching establishment. As to whether that is good or bad…?
And in light of what I fear I am set to become:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-11646978
Do I wanted to be dreaded now to be thanked (hopefully) later?
Back on more climatic-related events, I found this:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100060540/happy-climate-fools-day/
Choose ‘Best rating’ and you get (via the current top comment) to a chap called Tom Chivers, who seems keen to cite NASA. Fair enough, but then I recalled the less than awesome link kindly provided by Michael Snow a while back at #100: http://climate.nasa.gov/kids/bigQuestions/
Now I am a wee bit more cautious on referrals, no matter how seemingly credible the source.
This chap seems to have a science/education pulpit, but reading across his body of work it does seem to present a poor example in making a case and defending it:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tomchivers/100048316/biodiversity-loss-is-not-evidence-that-climate-change-isnt-real-i-cant-believe-i-have-to-say-this/
ps: TonyN – ta for FoI links. I have some reading ahead. Which is depressing enough a notion without the thought of the content.
To have an educational system dependent on one master (government) encourages group think – and as history shows, the wellspring of the ‘master group’ is always political and self serving.
The only remedy is consistent confrontation.
I have stayed away from this thread as I have commented in the past on exactly the issues raised here. Having 4 children, with the first 2 having now finished University I think I’m as qualified as anyone in the country to comment on the quality of teaching. And to be honest the individual teachers are no better or worse than they were in my time.
What has changed for the worse is the curriculum. I won’t go over all the examples I have but would just say that the example that really made my blood boil last year were the question last year about the effects of recreational drugs in a Biology GCSE exam. And I nearly forgot; teaching our kids in history that Britain was centre of the slave trade and forgetting to mention that it was a British parliament that passed a Law outlawing Slavery.
But, I have been gently getting my youngest (14) who is doing her first GCSE module exam next week to talk about the standard of teaching and what the other children are saying about all the silly subjects they have to endure to get at the real subject matter. And I detect a change in her attitude from that when her elder sister was at the same stage 10 or so years ago. And yes this rubbish has been in the curriculum for that long if not longer.
What I detect is the children have switched off. Especially on the subject of AGW; it has been rammed down their throats so much that they just couldn’t care less. The children are starting to notice that all this extracurricular propaganda it is getting in the way of them learning the academic subject. One of my Sons has the misfortune to be doing A level Physics at a time when they decided to remove all the extracurricular rubbish and fill the exam with real science. His entire class got marks 2 grades below what they expected to get. This prompted the pupils to complain to the school and demand that the teachers actually teach them. My daughter has asked us to do the same for her. And by the way both are at so called top grammar schools.
There must be a term or phrase that just escapes me for the moment used to describe the phenomenon of something creeping up on you slowly so you don’t notice and then suddenly everyone notices and reacts adversely.
Anyway our children may not yet have experience but they are no less intelligent than we are and I think they are having the same reaction as we adults are having to all the political propaganda, all be it in their own way. I have no doubt that they will do the right thing when it there turn to exercise their democratic rights.
peter geany says:
October 31st, 2010 at 12:56 pm
As I progress on this, I tend to agree.
Our ‘hands off’ approach to date has not meant we did/do not take an interest in our kids’ education, so any opportunity for interaction has been grasped with all hands.
We even attended ‘homework diary support group’ series of evening sessions a few years back. Ten parents out of 200, and we were the only couple. Though, harking back, the first hints were there and I ignored them. As an ad man and a real box-tickophobe I was already getting a telling-off for probing system logic and the sweet notion of trying to force 12 year olds to ‘fit’ a mindset that was happy so long as a few signatures that ‘something’ had been seen and no matter if understood. Now I recall, I was especially vocal on not having curriculum material to hand to work with and advise on best answers, or the opportunity to discuss what was deemed ‘correct’.
Water under the bridge.
What seduced me then, and to now, has been how convinced I was, and am, how dedicated all the boys’ teachers were/are to the craft of teaching and getting the kids along.
I guess I missed the bit about what was being taught and how they saw ‘getting them through’ as best achieved.
Ironically, the only one who was ‘failing’, all of them, was in Geography. Real personality clash stuff, with consequent double levels of grading down, in comparison to other subjects, and teachers. Even nasty feedback in reports, and equally critical views by the boys of his abilities in turn.
That… will now be corrected. I have failed them twice now. No more.
Now (over?) sensitised, and a little bit wary (Inconvenient Truth still doing the rounds, if with a warning sticker), I noted this with an eyebrow creaking upwards:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/oct/31/climate-change-computer-game
Certainly has had good PR on the news today.
Bearing in mind the debate surrounding the mindset behind questions posed in the revision piece that inspired this thread, I am not sure this is a good sign:
Not sure my two would buy into that, much less buy the game. It seems a tad ‘clunky’ in ladling on the message. Just hoping that certain education boards don’t see a quick fit for a budget and a target to be met.
I guess one will have to get it to find out just how representative of the science, and consequent decisions based upon it, the game is.
Some comments are already interesting.
Any gaming volunteers? I regret that, perhaps as a reaction against my kids’ XBox addiction, I can’t stand the things and for relaxation alternate a bit of surfing the net with making stuff in the shed.
junnkmale #161
The Guardian has two articles on this game. At
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/oct/31/fate-of-the-world-review
is this:
The second time in a month that the Guardian has pressed the genocide button. Will they ever learn?
Geoff, tx. Duly noted.
And even commented upon. Decided tongue in cheek is the better option.
I don’t think this has been best thought through.
Do they have the memories of Goldfish?
junnkmale #163
Your comments and Alex’s on the Guardian artcle duly noted and recommended. I think you gave the wrong link though in your second comment.
Ta 4 rcmd. Been an interesting day for ‘education’. I see you found the Indy (and Telegraph?) versions too, as I did. Nothing, as far as I am aware, on the BBC yet. their ‘take’ will be interesting.
Most in the MSM have reprinted a ‘green, so it must be good’ press release and are now reaping what they so casually sowed.
I’ve posed my question on a few, as there do seem to be some educationalists present. Sadly, again, it seems to have not attracted their usual eagerness to share their knowledge.
As for the link, it was a cut & paste. I guess another OSX/Safari thing.
Ok. I’m seduced. Not sure how you are going to do it, but having tried a Mac with Firefox and a PC on IE, all to the same frustrating result, I have to say I am open to any suggestions. Plus I’m out of email addy options, which may be an issue as the ‘system’ swallows the username and email and then sends you in circles trying to authorise or get a reminder.
Here’s the forum we’ve been looking for
http://www.tes.co.uk/forums.aspx?navcode=14
Type “climate change” in the search box and stand back. Here are teachers as I’ve always thought them to be, opinionated and argumentative. And with 3000 posts in the past 24 hours – happy searching!
junkkMale #166
I’ve registered but now I’m waiting for an activation code! I’ll let you know
tonyb
Geoff #167
I went to your link and tried ‘climate change’ and ‘global warming’but both are old threads.
I sincerely hope the threads have been hijacked by particularly stupid 12 year olds having a laugh. If not I fear for the education of our children-certainly on these two subjects.
There was the facility to download teachers notes but you had to register and by this time I had lost the will to live.
Perhaps someone with a child in the edcuation system (junkkMale?) would like to register and see what the teaching material consists of?
tonyb
tonyb #167
The comments on the Times Ed forums are no dafter than those at Guardian CiF; and the spelling’s much better (which just shows that the old jibe about Guardian readers being sandal-wearing geography teachers is most unfair on geography teachers).
There are live threads on the subject with comments in Oct 2010 (search “climate” or IPCC)
I found 60 hits for Phil Jones, including this:
With so many threads, the difficulty will be in finding the relevant ones.
The 2010 midterm elections usually are here, and most expect Republicans for making big gains in both equally chambers of Congress. While prevailing opinion holds that this GOP will take in the House of Representatives, there are numerous dissenters among national political figures. The Senate outlook is much more messy, but it is mostly accepted that Republicans experience a steeper climb to adopt back the upper chamber.
And hire a Delorean. The last post was a year ago, and the one preceding it he previous year. I will have a scope under other terms but it seems a bit of a maze. Plus the thread I did get was about as much use as trying to glean any sense from a Monbiot (A)GW ‘we must…’ thread. Precious little about education and an audience I doubt capable of rational response to my specific needs.
I’d say so, which kinda informs my answer to..
I’ll have a gander, but given my strong will to live, and certain demands on time already, may have to pass.
I fear it may be a long wait, as my various OS/browser attempts have all vanished, and any attempt at an activation or reminder merely gets one sent in a circle.
I saw one of my nicknames on the home page logged as a new member, so the problem seem to be in the confirmation system. I’ve looked everywhere but there seems to be no direct contact and the help/FAQs are useless.
Do they have a secret handshake?
Meanwhile, thanks to a Disqus system that is almost as good as the one used here (if prone to crashes/glitches), I have had ‘a’ reply to posting my question in the Indy (no idea on the Graun yet as it has no follow-up comment/reply facility to see if any brave teacher tried to go OT and answer a plea for help as opposed to joining in on the PC game trashing):
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/daddy-where-will-the-polar-bears-live-2121710.html#comment-92756476
Sadly not from the quoted ‘expert’ I had tried to tease out, but one who seems to have also more grasped the problem than any solution:
I have replied, more in sorrow for our shared, ongoing dilemma.
I also note that the exchange was one of the lowest rated, as others continue to fight the juicier, but to me now so highly polarised as to be near pointless, tribally extreme ’tis/t’sin’t’ (A)GW fight, leaving folks like me stuck on no man’s land watching a never ending artillery exchange fire overhead that serves little but to churn up mud.
My search continues…
I’m sure everyone would argue for better educational standards. But I’d just ask the question: if everyone really was better educated, would it actually suit you guys?
For instance, if you wandered into you local place of learning, ie your nearest university, you would be unlikely to find it to be a hotbed of Conservatism and climate change denial!
It seems to be well known in America, and even freely stated in the more Conservative, more Tea Party supporting cicles there:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/college-inc/2010/02/does_college_make_people_more.html
that those “Eastern, book learnin’ , over-educated, elitist, liberal types” are not exactly the best people to be trusted on questions of climate change. If anyone actually knows anything about climate science, or for anything else for that matter, it seems actually to be a disqualification in their eyes. I’d say that the reason Sarah Palin is so popular with the Tea baggers is because she knows SFA about anything!
I just tried a (long) post in reply to the Tonys, but it seems to have been eaten.
Before re-trying, let me attempt a a shorter one as we seem to be in the presence of soem rather odd redirections…
Any chance of you… answering the original question?